R/G Scapeshift

4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Burning-Tree Shaman

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Scapeshift
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Stomping Ground
2 Treetop Village
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs

4 Forest
1 Swamp
5 Mountain

4 Blood Moon
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Thought Hemorrhage
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Krosan Grip

Obviously not sure if this is right. Criticism encouraged.

seems fine, but is fallout really better than pyroclasm? I guess it is an extra two points of damage that can't be countered, but 3 mana is alot in the format. Fae isn't an amazing matchup but you should be able to aggro them out quite a bit and sweeping on turn two is much more effective against elves.

Chris wrote:seems fine, but is fallout really better than pyroclasm? I guess it is an extra two points of damage that can't be countered, but 3 mana is alot in the format. Fae isn't an amazing matchup but you should be able to aggro them out quite a bit and sweeping on turn two is much more effective against elves.

I found Fae to be a so-so matchup, and can't be countered is pretty important vs. them. No idea how much 2 mana vs. 3 matters vs. Elves. Also don't know the relative commonalities of those decks.

If Fallout isn't good enough vs. Elves, I'll either go with Great Sable Stag (better vs. Fae) or, as you suggested, Pyroclasm, I think.

Winterhalter wrote:

Chris wrote:seems fine, but is fallout really better than pyroclasm? I guess it is an extra two points of damage that can't be countered, but 3 mana is alot in the format. Fae isn't an amazing matchup but you should be able to aggro them out quite a bit and sweeping on turn two is much more effective against elves.

I found Fae to be a so-so matchup, and can't be countered is pretty important vs. them. No idea how much 2 mana vs. 3 matters vs. Elves. Also don't know the relative commonalities of those decks.

If Fallout isn't good enough vs. Elves, I'll either go with Great Sable Stag (better vs. Fae) or, as you suggested, Pyroclasm, I think.

I assume there will be a large swell in elves players since it won the GP, fae probably won't be played that much but is still a deck. We should definitely proxy up the gp winning elves list for testing tomorrow.

how about some ancient grudge in the board. for reference, this is the list that was posted in the Channel Fireball Mag

4 BBE
4 Finks
4 Sac Me Tribe Elder
4 Goyf

4 Search
4 Bolt
4 Pun Fire
4 Scapeshift
3 Jitte

4 Grove
4 S. Grounds
6 Forest
5 Mountain
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Treetop
2 Valakut
1 Blood Crypt

4 Blood Moon
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Thought Hemorhage
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Extripate
1 Swamp

I don't see the value in Grudge since Affinity isn't a real presence IRL. Uncounterable (valuable vs. Faeries, too) + can't make more thopters > flashback.

To explain some of my deviations from the stock list:

I definitely want the 2 slots that are currently Burning-Tree to be creatures CMC between 2 and 4. I'm open to the idea that BTS isn't the right card for the slot, though. I want the card to be big enough to tangle with zoo's guys and live, and to be fast enough to do something vs. the combo decks - though these are obviously countervailing wants (the more it costs, the worse it is vs. combo, the less it costs, the worse it is on defense). BTS seems to strike a good balance. It also shuts off the lifegain from Thopter. Wooly Thoctar might be good, too, but this means giving up on Hemorrhage.

It doesn't seem worthwhile to me to spend an extra slot on a swamp in the board, and Ghost Quarter seems to be the best card at fighting the early 20/20 draws from DDT.

i like the BTS (by the way, i have these and the thought hemorhages). the deck is extremely creature light to be packing Jitte (only 12, sac me hardly counts). kodoma is a good beater but cant carry a jitte.

Also krosan grip sounds good to me. i might want more for curio, jitte, and such. Also what about your dead/gone plan against DDT? looks good against bob, hexmage, and marit lage

I tried Dead/Gone and it wasn't good enough. Sometimes they'd kill me with a 20/20 before I could even cast Gone; often they'd just take it from me with Thoughtseize or Duress; sometimes they'd counter it with Muddle. Basically, the card comes up short in a bunch of ways that Ghost Quarter wouldn't.

BTW, as of right now I need:

2 Jitte
1 Thought H.
4 Ghost Q.
1 Fallout
2 K. Grip

All help appreciated.

im not playing GQ any more so those are all yours. im playing my 2 jittes. i have Thought Hemorhage, fallout for you as well

Winterhalter wrote: I definitely want the 2 slots that are currently Burning-Tree to be creatures CMC between 2 and 4. I'm open to the idea that BTS isn't the right card for the slot, though. I want the card to be big enough to tangle with zoo's guys and live, and to be fast enough to do something vs. the combo decks

It doesn't seem worthwhile to me to spend an extra slot on a swamp in the board, and Ghost Quarter seems to be the best card at fighting the early 20/20 draws from DDT.

I support playing Burning Tree Shaman because it accomplishes all of the requirements of a card at this slot you desire: (1) moderate casting cost, (2) correct P/T to beat off zoo, and (3) actually does something against combo.

I do not like Thought Hemorrhage as a strategy against combo because it is too slow and is easy for a control deck to counter. Against the small number of decks for which this card is a blowout (Elfbomb, Hive Mind, Storm, Scapeshift) this card is too little too late.

If you insist on finding disruption against combo in the sideboard, play Thoughtseize. That card is fast enough to disrupt the combo and gives you all sorts of good information about the ability of the combo player to combo-off. Your only options to stop a good combo deck will be on turn one, turn two, or possibly on turn three.
If you are on a budget play duress.

Ultimately, when you consider the function of this slot thoughtseize is faster than Thought Hemmorhage and accomplishes the substantively same feat. TS will disrupt a Scapeshift or similar deck on turn one, when you usually aren't doing anything else, and slow them down enough to allow you to win.

You should recognize that R/G scapeshift is slow and mid-rangy in general which means that it will frequently lose to most combo decks, notwithstanding disruption. This is a structural limitation that your sideboard cannot completely ameliorate.

The downside of using combo disruption is screwing up your manabase by including a 1x swamp with limited ways to fetch it. At least now you can play Putrid Leech

The 1x Swamp constraint (expandable to 1x Swamp, 1x Blood Crypt if need be) is actually the reason that the deck plays Thought Hemorrhage and not Thoughtseize. While I agree in general that Thoughtseize is a better disruptive card because it's effective earlier in the game, this doesn't really apply to a deck that has a total of 3 ways (2 Verdant Catacombs, 1 Swamp) to cast the card before turn 3. Given that you're generally going to have to wait until at least t3 to play the spell, the rationale is that you might as well go for a more powerful card.

I don't think the presence of counterspells really changes this analysis, since the combo decks with the ability to counter the spell (Hive Mind, U/G Scapeshift) don't run Mana Leak. Also note that the 8 mana ramp cards enable t3 Thought Hemorrhage somewhat reliably. Lastly, U/G Scapeshift generally has to get to 8 lands to kill you, allowing you more time to TH.

Winterhalter wrote: Given that you're generally going to have to wait until at least t3 to play the spell, the rationale is that you might as well go for a more powerful card.

This is a terrible reason to play a slower spell. Just because your manabase is poor and your deck stumbles does not justify playing substandard cards that slow you down even more. This rationale is the same one that attempts to justify playing resounding wave instead of repeal in Thopter-Combo because if your manabase is weak and you have to wait you may as well play a more powerful spell.

Winterhalter wrote: I don't think the presence of counterspells really changes this analysis, since the combo decks with the ability to counter the spell (Hive Mind, U/G Scapeshift) don't run Mana Leak.

I'd like to see Scapeshift or Hive Mind counter a turn one Thoughtseize. It is harder to counter a spell on turn 1/2 than on turn 4/5. Because TS costs less mana than TH it can be played on an earlier turn. Therefore, TS is usually harder to counter than TH.
As for the mana leak issue, those decks don't need mana leak to stop a 4-mana sorcery. Those decks play Cryptic Command and/or Remand, both which either shut down TH or give them enough time to combo off. Remand was built to answer slow sorceries like TH with more efficient mana use and give them a card draw to boot.

Winterhalter wrote: Also note that the 8 mana ramp cards enable t3 Thought Hemorrhage somewhat reliably.

Lol at a reliable turn three Thought Hemmorhage.

Robert Goulet wrote:This is a terrible reason to play a slower spell. Just because your manabase is poor and your deck stumbles does not justify playing substandard cards that slow you down even more. This rationale is the same one that attempts to justify playing resounding wave instead of repeal in Thopter-Combo because if your manabase is weak and you have to wait you may as well play a more powerful spell.

This is the rationale that says if you can't actually cast Spell X on turn 1 or 2, and the primary benefit of Spell X over Spell Y is the ability to play Spell X on turn 1 or 2, then maybe you should look at Spell Y.

I'd like to see Scapeshift or Hive Mind counter a turn one Thoughtseize. It is harder to counter a spell on turn 1/2 than on turn 4/5. Because TS costs less mana than TH it can be played on an earlier turn. Therefore, TS is usually harder to counter than TH.

Right, of course. But I am saying I can't cast turn 1 or turn 2 Thoughtseize because I only have 3 ways to get black on those turns. This is not me trying to justify playing a worse card because my mana sucks; it is tailoring the cards I play to the way my deck is set up. A low-cost splash is enabled precisely because there are 8 mana-ramp cards main. The relevant comparison is Thoughtseize on turn 3 or turn 4 vs. Thought Hemorrhage on turn 3 or turn 4.

As for the mana leak issue, those decks don't need mana leak to stop a 4-mana sorcery. Those decks play Cryptic Command and/or Remand, both which either shut down TH or give them enough time to combo off. Remand was built to answer slow sorceries like TH with more efficient mana use and give them a card draw to boot.

Those counterspells work on a turn 3 or turn 4 Thoughtseize, too. Obviously there's some difference in that you can then use your leftover mana to play a creature or whatever, but Scapeshift and Hive Mind don't really care too much about a random Kitchen Finks or Tarmogoyf. They're not going to lose to those cards with any sort of reasonable draw. A resolved Hemorrhage vs. those decks is pretty close to game over (Scapeshift only has the 1x Rude Awakening left as a win condition; not sure Hive Mind even has a plan B); a resolved Thoughtseize just buys you time to try to kill them with your dudes.

Lol at a reliable turn three Thought Hemmorhage.

It only takes 3 land and one of 8 ramp cards to play it turn 3 if you have it. This isn't that far-fetched.

omg ur mopey mid-rang3 dex = lose 2 corp lord like n00b