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    Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

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    Conelead

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  Conelead on Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:57 pm

    I may end up cutting 3 Islands for 1 River of Tears and 2 Misty Rainforest. I want a high Island count, as mentioned before.
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    jdoucette24

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  jdoucette24 on Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:58 pm

    what about just 3 misty rainforest? they get blue, black, and red?
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    Winterhalter

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  Winterhalter on Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:26 pm

    I still don't get why we are splashing red. Black has plenty of removal that fits your purposes.
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    adamt

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  adamt on Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:33 pm

    not for one mana unless you are maindecking deathmarks..

    bolts kill:

    any zoo t1 or t2 play
    bob
    dredge enablers

    all a turn faster than than smother/doom blade, which is huge with how fast dredge and zoo can come out.

    ditto goes for sideboarding firespouts vs damnations.
    a turn earlier vs zoo or elves is a VBD (very bid deal)
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    Winterhalter

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  Winterhalter on Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:52 pm

    I agree with the value of Firespout, but we're really saying that we're willing to take more damage from mana on average (and mulligan more often) to play 2 Bolts main? Smother already kills Bob, if 1 mana is really that vital vs. zoo just main a couple Deathmarks, and a few random Bolts isn't really going to result in you suddenly having a having a favorable g1 vs. Dredge. If Firespout is the vital card vs. zoo, why not MD that if you're going to bother splashing red?
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    Conelead

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  Conelead on Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:55 pm

    I may end up going 3 Bolt 3 Smother and board the extra of each. Frankly I like the fact that bolt gives me the option to go to the dome. I've been winning games by actually "racing" then throwing bolts at the face.
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    Robert Goulet

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  Robert Goulet on Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:50 pm

    Ben has a valid point here I think you guys are glossing over: the costs of bringing red spells into your faeries deck may be greater than the benefit you reap from playing those spells.

    Putting Steam Vents and Blood Crypts in your deck weakens your manabase and makes you take more damage from your lands. The fact that these decks run 4x Mutavault makes your manabase a priori fragile.
    The detriment you suffer from playing with a more fragile and demanding manabase may be just as bad as the problem you attempt to solve.

    As a result of brining in these red lands you have to play more fetch lands (at 1 life a piece) and more shock lands (at 2 life a piece). It seems foolish to hit yourself for three life in order to kill a Nacatl a turn earlier and thus save yourself three life. In my opinion a deck like Faeries that already damages itself with Bitterblossom needs to be extremely careful about life management, even small incremental changes from things like fetching an island with a Scalding Tarn. The loss of life is more significant than you may imagine.

    There are tools available to fit the slots that you are trying to fit with lightning bolt and firespout. Ben has already suggested some which were glossed over in your response(s).
    If you are really concerned about being able to promptly kill early threats that creature-based decks rush out you can compensate by playing more maindeck Deathmark or Doomblade.
    If you need a faster sweeper than Damnation (seems fast enough to me) than you can play Engineered Explosives. The combination of token generation, creatures with flash, and playing black spells gives you enough tools for removal that brining in red seems like the wrong direction to take a creature-based control deck.




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    Conelead

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  Conelead on Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:57 pm

    My issue with explosives as a "sweeper" is that it 1) really isn't a sweeper and 2) is sometimes more expensive than Firespout. The card I really want maindeck is Path to Exile. I don't want to maindeck Deathmark because it doesn't kill Bob. Red Faeries (at least the build I'm running) is far more aggro control than aggro CONTROL if you catch my drift. I've been playing the deck fairly aggressively and my results are good. I agree that there is a cost to having red mana but I don't feel like any of the other solutions are acceptable.
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    Robert Goulet

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  Robert Goulet on Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:31 pm

    Conelead wrote:My issue with explosives as a "sweeper" is that it 1) really isn't a sweeper and 2) is sometimes more expensive than Firespout. The card I really want maindeck is Path to Exile. I don't want to maindeck Deathmark because it doesn't kill Bob. Red Faeries (at least the build I'm running) is far more aggro control than aggro CONTROL if you catch my drift. I've been playing the deck fairly aggressively and my results are good. I agree that there is a cost to having red mana but I don't feel like any of the other solutions are acceptable.


    Chingsung you're going to need to explain a little more thoroughly why explosives does not count as a sweeper (besides the obvious fact that it can't kill one-drops and two-drops in the same activation.)
    Please explain in more detail why explosives is unsatisfactory. The ability to recur it with academy ruins makes the card seem almost broken.

    Please address the previously raised issue of how the loss of life and strength in the manabase offset to the incremental increase in speed you experience as a result of the wider selection of removal options. Doesn't losing 3 life to fetching Steam Vents the same thing as suffering one more attack from a wild nacatl?

    As for spot removal is seems like Smother will match the slot occupied by lightning bolt just fine. Neither card handles Baneslayer and Smother has the ability to catch that silly 3-mana Knight everyone is so enamored with.

    I realize lightning bolt has a slight advantage in providing a second win condition but it seems like a marginal advantage at best over the already significant pressure presented by attacking each turn with fliers. Attacking with flying faeries is a lot more of a reliable and consistent win condition for your deck than attempting to occasionally burn out an opponent with 3x burn spells in a deck full of islands.
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    Conelead

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  Conelead on Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:42 pm

    Robert Goulet wrote:
    Conelead wrote:My issue with explosives as a "sweeper" is that it 1) really isn't a sweeper and 2) is sometimes more expensive than Firespout. The card I really want maindeck is Path to Exile. I don't want to maindeck Deathmark because it doesn't kill Bob. Red Faeries (at least the build I'm running) is far more aggro control than aggro CONTROL if you catch my drift. I've been playing the deck fairly aggressively and my results are good. I agree that there is a cost to having red mana but I don't feel like any of the other solutions are acceptable.


    Chingsung you're going to need to explain a little more thoroughly why explosives does not count as a sweeper (besides the obvious fact that it can't kill one-drops and two-drops in the same activation.)
    Please explain in more detail why explosives is unsatisfactory. The ability to recur it with academy ruins makes the card seem almost broken.

    Please address the previously raised issue of how the loss of life and strength in the manabase offset to the incremental increase in speed you experience as a result of the wider selection of removal options. Doesn't losing 3 life to fetching Steam Vents the same thing as suffering one more attack from a wild nacatl?

    As for spot removal is seems like Smother will match the slot occupied by lightning bolt just fine. Neither card handles Baneslayer and Smother has the ability to catch that silly 3-mana Knight everyone is so enamored with.

    I realize lightning bolt has a slight advantage in providing a second win condition but it seems like a marginal advantage at best over the already significant pressure presented by attacking each turn with fliers. Attacking with flying faeries is a lot more of a reliable and consistent win condition for your deck than attempting to occasionally burn out an opponent with 3x burn spells in a deck full of islands.

    you hit the nail on the head with the explosives "issue." I can't kill a one drop and a two drop with one activation, and I frequently don't have the time to recur it with Ruins. Also, the reason I like Lightning Bolt as opposed to Deathmark is because of it's utility against decks where Deathmark is mediocre. It's instant-ness is also very relevant. Consider being on the play against Zoo:

    Me: Scalding Tarn, go
    Him: Fetch, Nacatl, go
    Me: EOT fetch Steam Vents, bolt your Nacatl. Untap, Island, go.

    If that was a Deathmark (and I played secluded glen or river of tears on turn 1), all I have is a single blue mana, which means they just have to play around Spell Snare. With this sequence I gain Mana Leak in addition to Spell Snare at the cost of 3 life. Of course, if it allows me to counter one of their creatures on turn 2 (if they go Ape, Nacatl for example), I have just probably bought back all the life I lose.

    You are correct that sometimes it doesn't matter. Sometimes I just take 3 and bolt the Nacatl, which is the same as taking an extra attack and playing Doom Blade or Smother. Other times though, I DO gain. I take the "attack" and I allow myself to stop subsequent tempo development. Lightning Bolt is much better for my tempo than Doom Blade, Deathmark, or Smother. It also kills Dark Confidant and goes to the dome. If you have Bolt, it takes a full turn off of your clock with both Vendillion Clique and Bitterblossom (normally). Those advantages cannot be ignored.

    I am already playing Smother and I don't really like Doom Blade in this format. Deathmark is maindeckable, but I feel like if I'm going to go that far I would rather just take the further leap and maindeck bolts. If I cut the bolts I will go back to straight UB, but for now I think the tempo they provide is well worth the cost in excess damage and in mana stability. Also note that bolts are very good in the mirror.

    Lightning bolts provide many small advantages as opposed to one large one. Their flexibility is their greatest strength. More narrow answers are available for each of the roles lightning bolt fulfills, but it is the fact that bolt fulfills ALL those roles that make it such an excellent card.
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    Winterhalter

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  Winterhalter on Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:14 pm

    That's a pretty good argument, actually. It only makes sense if you have enough fetches to do it reliably, though. Smile
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    Conelead

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  Conelead on Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:37 pm

    Point taken.
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    CorpulentLord

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  CorpulentLord on Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:42 pm

    conemoron why u think u can play crads dont even talk about this dek obvi u suck at it so hard u need help from litenin bolt obvi it is best crad ever n u need cuz u r ubern00b

    conemoron just play like ten litenin bolt it is like best card evah i play 12 in my dek it rulez u ldo i just own u n00bzor u are uberloser
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    CorpulentLord

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  CorpulentLord on Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:43 pm

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    M.C. LOUD

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  M.C. LOUD on Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:29 pm

    whats the red fae list that was played at the PTQ last weekend?
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    Conelead

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  Conelead on Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:16 pm

    2x Mistbind Clique
    3x Vendilion Clique
    4x Spellstutter Sprite

    4x Ancestral Vision
    4x Spell Snare
    4x Mana Leak
    2x Cryptic Command
    4x Bitterblossom
    3x Umezawa's Jitte
    3x Lightning Bolt
    3x Smother

    4x Scalding Tarn
    2x Misty Rainforest
    1x River of Tears
    4x Secluded Glen
    5x Island
    2x Watery Grave
    2x Steam Vents
    1x Blood Crypt
    4x Mutavault

    Sideboard:
    1x Lightning Bolt
    1x Smother
    4x Leyline of the Void
    2x Extirpate
    4x Thoughtseize
    3x Firespout

    I wouldn't change a thing. I was very happy with the deck. Got paired against red decks 4/5 rounds. Not much I can do about that.
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    CorpulentLord

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  CorpulentLord on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:36 pm

    i b3at 7his dek on sa7erdya it wuz terribel s0op plyain it conemoron it sukz s0000 h@rd ldo lol dont make m pwn u agen like i d1d last w33k wh3n i did ur mom roflmao
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    CorpulentLord

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    Re: Fae, the solution to a combo heavy format?

    Post  CorpulentLord on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:39 pm

    wtf wats wr0ng wi7h u conemoron lol st0p p0sting th3s3 terribel deks on forum lol no 1 w@nts to h3ar th3m serrriosly they r soooooooo b@d lik serrriosly lol u r soo dumb it is p funny lol



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