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    Tribal Flames Zoo

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    Conelead

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  Conelead on Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:52 pm

    Winterhalter wrote:Burn doesn't solve problems, it eliminates their source. The primary strategy of a zoo deck is to treat creatures as recursive burn spells. The burn/removal either (1) furthers their purpose in this regard by removing blockers OR (2) finishes the job once that strategy has been invalidated. Bant Charm is "getting cute" in this regard because while it is proficient in accomplishing (1), indeed arguably better at doing so than Tribal Flames because it interacts with a broader range of cards, it has zero capacity to do (2). Many, many games are decided on your ability to carry out (2) - having only 8 spells in your deck that serve this purpose makes it noticeably less effective at this. This is all in addition to obvious considerations about higher cost and greater difficulty of casting.

    Seconded.
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    CorpulentLord

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  CorpulentLord on Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:25 pm

    Robert Goulet wrote:@Corpulent Lord: These decks are already playing the maximum number of lightning bolt. It is against the rules of magic to play with more than 4 copies of any card besides a basic land.

    Please enjoy my music while you ponder these thoughts.


    LOLWUT WHY IS THE WIKED OLD GUY HERE ? LOL HE IS SO OLD IS LIKE DYNESARE

    old man go back to the nerssing home lol or the sematare lol like old people suck obvi u r like 76 yerrs ol u dumb old fosel u should die now u r so old its lik nat evin funny roflmao

    u are dynesare and dynesares go in museums why r u not in MuSeUm roflamo go away and die old man and ur song sucks obvi why u sing this crap u are so bad at singing u should lissen to ja rule cuz corp lord lissens to ja rule he is best ldo u suck obvi lol

    DONT TELL ME HOW MENNY LITENIN BOLTS TO PLAY CORP LORD IS KING OF MAGIK CARDS OBVI U n00b
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    jdoucette24

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  jdoucette24 on Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:12 pm

    Alright here's where im at the day before the PTQ

    zoo
    4 kird ape
    4 wild nacatl
    4 loam lion
    4 tarmogoyf
    4 knight of the reliquary
    3 qasali pridemage

    4 lightning bolt
    4 lightning helix
    4 tribal flames
    4 path to exile

    4 arid mesa
    4 verdant catacomb
    4 scalding tarn
    1 marsh flats
    1 stomping ground
    1 sacred foundry
    1 temple garden
    1 godless shrine
    1 steam vents
    1 blood crypt

    sideboard
    4 thoughtseize
    3 aven mindcensor
    2 deathmark
    2 umezawa's jitte
    2 bant charm
    1 qasali pridemage
    1 bojuka bog

    sideboard plans
    hex depths/thopter sword: +4 thoughseize, +3 aven, +2 bant charm, +1 pridemage, -4 bolt, -4 helix, -2 knight

    faeries: +2 jitte, +1 pridemage, -2 helix, -1 knight

    zoo (fast): +2 jitte, +2 deathmark, -4 tribal flames???

    UG scapeshift: +4 thoughtseize, +3 aven, -4 path, -3 pridemage

    RG scapeshift: +4 thoughtseize, -4 helix (aven is killed too easily. deathmark could come in instead of path but finks is a real issue. also i could bring in my jittes to battle their jitte.) do most bring in blood moon against zoo decks?

    elves: +2 deathmark, +2 jitte, +1 pridemage, +4 thoughtseize, -4 knight, -4 tribal flames, -1 helix. (i dont think i need this much of a sideboard so maybe the thoughtseizes stay in the board but i dont see myself losing with all that cheap removal and disruption)

    big zoo: +2 deathmark +2 bant charm, -4 helix

    dredge: +1 bojuka bog, -1 pridemage. ill just lose this game. doesnt sound like its very popular anyway or a good matchup with hate

    bant/doran: +2 jitte, +1 pridemage, +2 deathmark, -4 helix, -1 bolt

    affinity: +1 pridemage, +2 bant charm, +2 jitte, -1 knight, -4 flames (helix is the other option but gain 3 life at instant speed seems pretty important)

    thoper faeries: +1 pridemage, +2 jitte, +4 thoughtseize, -4 path, -1 knight, -2 helix. bant charm is another possibility but its kind of slow

    hypergenesis: +4 thoughtseize, -3 pridemage, -1 helix

    boros: +2 jitte, +2 deathmark, -3 pridemage, -1 flames

    thats what i got right now, if i forgot a matchup let me know
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    CorpulentLord

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  CorpulentLord on Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:12 pm

    Ur dek sucks obv

    jdorklette: play more lmwrn elf mayB u actually win a game ubern00b

    u cat plya magik cards at towremint stay home and play candyland instead n00bZOR roflmao
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    jdoucette24

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  jdoucette24 on Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:41 pm

    update to the deck

    4 cat
    4 ape
    4 lion
    4 goyf
    4 knight
    3 pridemage

    4 bolt
    4 helix
    4 flames
    4 path

    21 lands

    4 thoughtseize
    3 deathmark
    3 damping matrix
    2 jitte
    2 bant charm
    1 pridemage

    I agree with andy about aven, it didnt do much for me. might as well just shut off the combo then preventing them from searching for it. im really solid on the main deck. nothing i would change except for me to play better and not get paired against AIR who t1 bloodmoons on the play
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    jdoucette24

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  jdoucette24 on Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:02 pm

    alright i think ill be going the bant charm route
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    Conelead

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  Conelead on Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:03 pm

    I think you should just stop playing basic forests and plains. Basic Island is where it's at.
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    jdoucette24

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  jdoucette24 on Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:39 am

    actually i will be playing basic island in my deck. here is my update. a saito zoo variation

    4 loam lion
    4 kird ape
    4 wild nacatl
    4 tarmogoyf
    4 knight of the reliquary
    3 qasali pridemage

    4 lightning bolt
    4 lightning helix
    4 bant charm
    4 path to exile

    4 arid mesa
    4 scalding tarn
    4 misty rainforest
    1 temple garden
    1 sacred foundry
    1 stomping ground
    1 steam vents
    1 hallowed fountain
    1 forest
    1 plains
    1 island
    1 treetop village

    4 negate
    4 meddling mage
    3 damping matrix
    2 jitte
    2 ranger of eos

    I think i should play a 22nd land but i dont really want to cut a helix.
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    Winterhalter

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  Winterhalter on Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:02 am

    Cut a Helix. Don't play Damping Matrix.
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    jdoucette24

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  jdoucette24 on Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:16 am

    what would you suggest instead of damping matrix? seems pretty good at shutting down DDT.

    also what should the 22nd land be? 2nd temple garden is the general pick from other similar deck lists
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    jdoucette24

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  jdoucette24 on Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:15 pm

    I might not be willing to part with my tribal flames just yet. here is what im thinking so that i can also include bant charm

    4 loam lion
    4 wild nacatl
    4 kird ape
    4 tarmogoyf
    4 knight of the reliquary
    3 qasali pridemage
    1 ranger of eos

    4 lightning holt
    4 tribal flames
    4 path to exile
    2 bant charm

    4 arid mesa
    4 verdant catacomb
    4 scalding tarn
    2 misty rainforest
    1 stomping ground
    1 sacred foundry
    1 temple garden
    1 blood crypt
    1 godless shrine
    1 steam vents
    1 forest
    1 plains

    4 thoughtseize
    3 deathmark
    3 damping matrix
    2 jitte
    2 bant charm
    1 ranger of eos
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    Winterhalter

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  Winterhalter on Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:24 am

    Actually, I got mixed up. You're supposed to cut Helix for Bant Charm, not Tribal Flames. You can play 11 1-drops to get the extra land, play 3 Bant Charms, or just be greedy and play 21 lands anyway.

    Damping Matrix sucks because it doesn't "do anything." You need to leverage your guys - you merely back them up with ways to interact with their 2 combos. Bant Charm already interacts extremely well with both, but doesn't do damage; you don't want too many cards in your deck that don't allow you to create pressure.

    Thus, I think the best way to get further angles of interaction with them is probably the much-maligned Meddling Mage, mostly because he also attacks for 2.
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    Chris

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  Chris on Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:51 am

    The fact that Meddling mage swings for 2 is very relavent. You look awefully weak to elves/ combo. What about canonist over damping matrix?
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    JohnJackson

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  JohnJackson on Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:47 am

    Canonist can also snag a game 2 win in the Living End matchup if your opponent is caught unaware. The typical boarding is -ingot chewer, +shriekmaw, though you can bet that the chewers come back if they see your canonists coming.
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    jdoucette24

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  jdoucette24 on Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:08 pm

    chris i completely disagree about the elves match up. between 4 bolt, 4 path, 3 deathmark, 4 thoughtseize, 3 pridemage, 4 tribal flames and maybe even jitte (althought this is probably too slow) i have plenty of early answers to just about anything they throw at me.
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    Chris

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  Chris on Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:34 pm

    I'm not saying its terrible against elves, but it doesn't seem to give much focus to it as a tier 1 deck. With Tutor of the Reliquiery I'd try to find room for at least 1 ghost quarter and at least 1 Bojiggawhatsit bog.
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    jdoucette24

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  jdoucette24 on Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:00 pm

    turn 4 for bojuka bog seems too slow against dredge and living end.
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    Chris

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  Chris on Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:09 pm

    Turn 4 is slow, its slow against depths too with ghost quarter, but you hope you can slow those decks down enough to get to the midgame and you can draw it its just also tutorable. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't run it, but for example if you're adding 3-4 gy hate cards, one of them should probably be bog. Same with depths, you might want to replace 1 of your hate cards with a ghost quarter.
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    JohnJackson

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  JohnJackson on Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:12 pm

    Dredge now isn't the same dredge it used to be. With their dredge starters being rusalka, hedron crab, and glimpse the unthinkable, it is very likely that they haven't gotten to a completely dominating position by the time your Knight is active, especially in game 2 (where I assume you're on the play).
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    Winterhalter

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  Winterhalter on Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:28 pm

    Chris is saying that if you're going to board 4 Rav. Trap, instead board 3 Rav. Trap 1 Bog, because Bog is similar to Trap when you draw it, but also tutorable, ergo functioning as more than 4 virtual hate cards. It's a more efficient use of sideboard space.

    Mage does a lot of the same stuff as Canonist vs. Elves, BTW, and does it without being vulnerable to V. Shaman. Granted, it's probably worse than Canonist on balance vs. Elves, but it has applications in more matchups.


    Last edited by Winterhalter on Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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    jdoucette24

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  jdoucette24 on Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:32 pm

    oh i totally understand that reasoning. but the question remains, should i even bother boarding for dredge. its a shit matchup anyway
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    Chris

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    Re: Tribal Flames Zoo

    Post  Chris on Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:04 pm

    Its not that bad, but the question about how many dredge decks in the filed there are is defintely relevent. Living end isn't such a great matchup for you either. Don't forget that you can and often should burn your own creatures to remove bridge from below against dredge.

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